Seriously, the most ethical chocolatier you’ll ever meet

Zimt Chocolates founder Emma Smith and I go way back to when I was still starting my public relations agency in 2009. We went for a snack at Choices and she introduced me to Lovena Galyide, another notable vegan Vancouverite. She was also a VEG Networking Canada member before I was, so when we started recording interviews, I made sure to circle back with her.

While this conversation is a few years old, we learned a lot about Emma’s values as a vegan and how she integrates them every day into Zimt, one of the most ethical chocolate companies globally, IMHO.

Justin Manning: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of VEG Networking Canada. We’re going to begin with our land acknowledgement. It is vitally important that we acknowledge, honor, and respect that many of us are located on the traditional unceded territories of many Indigenous peoples of Canada. Welcome to another episode of Veg Networking Canada, where vegan and plant-based companies connect and collaborate.

Today we have an excellent special guest, a 15-plus year vegan out of love for the animals, human health, and environmental sustainability. A master chocolatier with over 11 years of experience, an advocate for ethical supply chain functionality, and an impact-driven leader passionate about supporting the most vulnerable human and non-human organizations. VEG Networking Canada is pleased to introduce the founder and CEO of Zimt Artisan Chocolates, welcome Emma Smith.

Emma Smith: Thank you.

JM: You are so modest and so welcome. Anybody who’s got over 10 years of experience in one particular field is definitely a master in that. So we’re happy to have you here today and learn a little bit more about your new business. Before getting into the business side of things and entrepreneurship:

Can you tell us a little bit more about your vegan or plant-based origin story?

ES: Yeah, so it’s an origin story of very pre-term plant-based. I’ve been vegan, like you said, for over 15 years. I guess, God, it’s February. I don’t even know when I went vegan, at some point when I was a baby. Like, all teenagers seem like babies now, right?

So I went vegan almost 16 years ago now, and it was a very different space with a lot fewer product options. But I really valued the community. I really enjoyed it in those earlier days. I mean, it’s easy to look back with nostalgia, but it was a lot simpler, a lot less corporate, and maybe a little less polished, which I enjoyed because it really got to the heart of the matter. For most people at the time, it was really focused on extending empathy towards non-human animals and recognizing their sentience, as well as environmental health. So, in that sense, a little ahead of the curve.

Also looking at things from a more holistic perspective, not exclusively focused on health, though of course bearing that in mind. That’s when I started delving into veganism. It was actually at a really awful point in my life when I went vegan. I was in a psych ward at Children’s Hospital; I had an eating disorder. I hadn’t been vegan before I got placed in there. I had been vegetarian for a while, kind of pre-internet reliability days, or no pescatarian!

I remember my mom saying, “Well, fish don’t have centralized nervous systems,” and, “If you eat kosher chicken, they don’t even feel it when they die.” And I thought, “Okay, well, I don’t want to piss off my mom,” so I went back to consuming chickens very briefly. But eating flesh foods really creeps me out. For me, it felt like eating bacteria.

So, I had done that for a little bit and was obviously in a tricky spot with my health. But while I was in the hospital, I met someone who’s still one of my best friends to this day, a vegan kid who was very new to the scene. We really connected because he was so weird and great, and somehow he was able to convince me that this was the way to go. He’s one of my best friends. He’s such a weirdo, but I totally got him.

Of course, as I learned more about these industries, learning that fish do in fact have centralized nervous systems, that kosher slaughter is still taking someone’s life, and we all know what a complete and utter nightmare dairy is. I realized I couldn’t keep participating. Even if people thought I was sicker for doing this, I knew I couldn’t continue to hurt the most vulnerable.

It was pretty uncomfortable. There weren’t really many support networks out there at the time; it was still a very fringe way to live, and in some ways it still is. But I wouldn’t change it for the world. Even back then, it was awkward and painful, but I kept the bigger picture in mind and focused on that. I’ve been vegan ever since, and very happily so, sometimes unhealthily, I will say, sometimes more healthily.

There are so many ways to do it, and if I could do it, a lot of people can do it.

JM: That’s why, when we were talking beforehand, Sandra said you’re a leader in the space, because you clearly make yourself available to lead with vulnerability, which is a massive cornerstone of leadership. So, thank you so much for sharing that story. And to your point there, dairy really is an utter nightmare, pun intended.

So, moving beyond that, and being a chocolatier for over 11 years:

Can you tell us about your entrepreneur spark? Where did that start? Was it with Zimt, or something before? How did that go for you?

ES: Yeah, that’s a great question. It was before Zimt. I had always wanted to start my own business… and I think part of that came from some insecurities. I remember graduating from a fairly prestigious business school and thinking, “God, I don’t know how to work for a company… I don’t know how to go to meetings, wear a suit, sit at a desk in a cubicle. I don’t know any of that stuff.” I had never done internships or worked in those kinds of corporate settings. I had always worked in organic smoothie bars, produce stands… things like that. So I thought, “I don’t know what I’m doing… and I don’t want to put that on another business.”

The real thing was, I didn’t feel comfortable with so many businesses at the time. There wasn’t really an option for transition from school life to work life in the corporate world I was “supposed” to pursue. I wasn’t comfortable ethically with what was being sold or provided.

So I thought, “I’ll just do it myself and come up with an idea.” That’s basically how Zimt started. I had other ideas in mind, but there were fairly low barriers to entry, and the market seemed like it would gravitate toward it. I guess it did, more than I expected.

That’s really what got me going. I just wanted to put something out there to show people, “Hey, you can have yummy things without hurting anybody.”

JM: And what was the business school?

ES: Sauder [School of Business] at UBC.

JM: Yeah, you’re right… definitely a prestigious business school.

You bring up a really interesting point about that gap and how to navigate it. I don’t know if you already do this… or maybe it’s something you’ll do in the future… but you would probably be an incredible mentor for women entrepreneurs who are coming out of that same experience. I’m sure you’re not the first person to go through that gap or uncertainty, and you won’t be the last. That’s really interesting.

But back to business, being in the chocolate business, with your niche being vegan chocolate. Take this question however you will:

What are some trends in your industry?

ES: Well, I think if you look at the broader industry and less direct competition, it’s moving towards more direct competition. I don’t like to put it that way, but that is the case; it’s becoming quite saturated. So, moving towards formulating whatever is vegan or plant-based and slapping that on the packaging… that’s a trend right now.

I hope it’s a trend that lasts for a long time, so we can get to a higher level of understanding its significance, beyond just feeling like you’re doing something good and eating something yummy. It’s a lot more than that. But I would say that’s a major trend.

For small players and large players alike, as I referenced getting into this business, there were low barriers to entry, and I’d say they’re even lower now. So, there’s a plethora of players, small and large. I don’t think it’s confusing to consumers because they don’t have the information at their fingertips to process it, but I do think it creates a tricky scenario, looking at things from an economic perspective and seeing how the industry plays out. It’s across the board… it’s not unique to just chocolate.

Another trend I’d say for sure is focusing more on single origin. That’s more chocolate-specific, single origin cacao and more direct trade, which I think is great in a lot of ways. It does present some supply chain issues, and I’m not sure that focus is always supported or worth it… but if you can do it, and farms can support you, then it’s nice to work with people directly for sure.

JM: And the last thing on trends, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you were maybe a little ahead of the curve with your focus on packaging and sustainability. Is that fair to say?

ES: Yeah, I think so. It’s funny, I was just having a conversation about this. Packaging is the one thing that, within COVID, really put things at a standstill for us. It’s crazy to think that if we can’t get our little bags, we can’t get product out the door and it’s been like that more times than I can count these past two years. Which is tough because we need to sell things to pay rent and all the rest.

But yes, packaging was an important element to me from day one. I didn’t want to take the privilege of running my own business and just mow down the earth with it. So I sourced that very early… right away. That was paramount, and it wasn’t really available at that time either. There were maybe one or two suppliers, and not very many options.

So, I would buy these larger bags that could fit three of our chocolate bars, and my Oma would seal them and cut them by hand to size. So I had bags, thanks to her. She’s great. I do wish more companies would prioritize that… not just because more people are becoming aware of it. A lot of times consumers still don’t prioritize it. They’ll say, “Hey, my life is hard enough. I just want a chocolate bar; leave me alone.” And I get that. But I really do think that if we’re in the position as business owners, with this privilege, we can’t just let it run amok. We’ve got to take more responsibility and do something with it.

So, for the past 11 years, that’s what we’ve been doing. And I’ll quickly point out that not all packaging is created equal, even if it says compostable on it. I found out recently, looking at alternate suppliers because the supply chain’s been so wonky, some compostable packaging does contain virgin petroleum. So, you’ve got the raw materials and the end goods, and it’s important to see how they actually work together… and what they really mean. That’s a lot of information for people to absorb who are just trying to do better; it’s a lot.

JM: It is a lot, and I think that you hit on a really neat… or really interesting trend, which is organizations, companies moving towards taking away bad choices from customers. Yeah, I think that that’s really fascinating and we could probably talk about that for a lot longer. But getting back to Zimt… maybe you can tell us sort of a quick rundown of how it was, where you’re at now… but the question is:

Where is Zimt going in the future?

ES: Yeah, those are some good questions. So when I started Zimt, it was just… you know, it was another lifetime, right? I don’t think there was much in the way of commissaries back then, so it was really tricky to find space to manufacture out of. And the first space I rented was in a church kitchen. It took months to nail something down, right? But yeah, I was able to rent space from them; I think a few afternoons a week, and they were great. Like, I kind of missed those days; it was a lot simpler. Yeah, it was good.

And then they needed the space more, if memory serves, and so I moved to the back of Fairy Cakes, which is still there on Fraser. Sarah rented me some space one day a week, which was really helpful. And then I think she needed that day as well, so then I moved to a table in North Vancouver. It was at a facility from a company which no longer is operating… Crave Conscious. Do you remember Crave Conscious? They made almond milk yogurt and stuff… and really good cookies. Yeah, I miss those cookies. But anyway.

Okay, so that, and did everything in-house. And to be honest, shortly after I started Zimt until maybe like four or five years ago, I would say life was pretty… it was pretty complicated. It was pretty exhausting… like my personal life and things just kind of got to be a lot. And I know that at that point, Crave Conscious also wanted their space to operate fully. And so I found a co-manufacturer to make our product. I’m still in touch with them, and actually he just visited. He’s talking about packaging.

And so I worked with them for a couple of years. It was a pretty unconventional relationship. I know with a lot of co-packers, you can kind of just say, “Okay, hey, stick our name on this label, pump out the product, put it on a pallet, ship it, we’re done.” But no, I was there constantly. I rented a room from them to store our stuff. I packed up all the pallets. We did a lot of our own packaging in-house just because they refused to package all our stuff. We still made the macaroons in-house, because they didn’t want to touch them… such a pain in the butt to make.

Yeah, and I rented some space from them to make little one-off products and stuff like that, specialty. So did that, got renovicted because they sold one of their buildings and they needed the room I was in. They kept manufacturing our bars, and I operated out of a storage room down the laneway from them, just with finishing packaging and shipping. I also rented a table in a commissary for three and a half days a week, and had to bring in one small piece of equipment to keep our line intact.

And that didn’t last very long. The manager of the commissary didn’t want to get the HVAC fixed, and temperature control is really important for not only for chocolate manufacturing but for keeping people comfortable. So, fortunately, I found a space in Burnaby. That was the last place we were at before this spot. Operated under there for a year and a bit, and then found this space partway through that and did like a whole reno, which was a doozy. It was a lot… a lot of work, a lot of permits. Which, you know, went a lot better than I thought they would, because you always hear horror stories. It was a lot of stupid red tape, but yeah, it went all right.

And yeah, now we’ve got this space we manufacture out of. It’s great; it feels pretty luxurious, to be honest. To have enough room, to have temperature control, usually not having a landlord bugging you. So yeah, other than the rent being exorbitantly high, no complaints!

JM: Well, for those who haven’t been to the space, or are from out of province or out of country and come, it’s definitely a destination spot. What you would hope in a little space, so bright, white, and clean. And then, of course, the cherry on top is all the different goodies.

Emma, how many… do you know how many stores are you in, what is distribution like for you right now, and are there any plans to increase or change any of that?

ES: Yeah, and I’m sorry I missed part of your question about where Zimt’s going, which kind of plays into that. So we’ve been working with one local distributor for about… I want to say like seven or eight years now, and they’re great. I really like them. And so that’s for Western Canada. We’ve got another distributor who distributes across Canada, and I really like them too; their systems are great. Less volume with them generally, for sure, just because I haven’t really established Eastern Canada too much. I did try to get distribution out there years ago, but it didn’t work.

We recently got picked up by Indigo Books, which is… yeah, I’m really happy about that. So, hopefully, we can keep that going. It’s been a ride with them, but yeah, I hope we can keep that going. I really do value that relationship a lot.

And in the future, like I would love to see a quicker sell-through rate of our product. Because, you know, it is shelf stable, it can last for years, but I don’t want it to last on the shelf for years; I want people to really desire it and keep it coming. And I think a lot of that is consumer knowledge and education, which is tough.

And I know in a way, you get the reward, but it is a big ask to buy our stuff because there are substitute products which may or may not have enough attributes that the consumer’s looking for. But I would like to see more of a sell-through rate.

And coming back to packaging, I’d like to expand our offerings for a zero-waste line. Because we can do that, we do get creative with the waste we create in the factory. There’s so much opportunity for that to grow and to kind of shift mindsets about, like, hey, this is just as good wrapped in a piece of parchment paper as it would be in this pretty box, you know?

So that, and then moving forward, other than a quicker sell-through rate… I mean, that’s the main thing. We’ve got good distribution. I’d of course love to do more corporate sales; that would be really nice. And online sales are tricky just because the weather’s getting so crazy, and we can really only safely ship a smaller and smaller portion of the year.And I think too, if people are just placing orders for themselves, I upcycle a ton of our packaging, but it is a lot of packaging to use for just one order. So I always encourage people to buddy up on orders and maybe meet minimums for free shipping or whatever.

Yeah, and then another couple things. Starting chocolate classes here, just tasting, and people can make their own little things. That would be really nice. So hopefully we’ll be starting that in March, fingers crossed. And getting some new products out there will be challenging but good. So that’s what I’m hoping for in the immediate future, I would say for this remainder of this year, which is going by really fast by the way.

JM: Yes, I know it is. And so, for those who want a date night with their significant other, or with their kids, or something like that, going to these chocolate classes and tastings sound amazing! And anybody listening maybe from Patagonia, or Arcteryx, or Lululemon, or anything like that, if you want to really make your people really happy with some chocolate!

So maybe no right or wrong answer here. And I’m sure that you’ve done stuff in the past, or maybe you’re gonna have some plans for this year, but:

Does Zimt support any charities?

ES: Yeah, okay, so that is the best… that is like, oh man, it gets me really excited, obviously. That was kind of my goal with Zimt and it still is. Every time I write that rent check, I’m like, oh my god, I really have to dissociate from it.

Yeah, so very recently, like as of a week and a half ago, and I haven’t really released this information yet, I’m very excited, we started sponsoring two animals at Home for Hooves. And Wilma is the chicken and Koda is a kitty cat, I’m really excited to introduce them to everybody I can reach, and just kind of put it out there like, hey, you know what, there’s like a bajillion of these guys out there, go help them out, they’re the best.

So that’s one of the things. I know we also support Hearts on Noses a little bit every month. And Janice is so funny; she’s great, so I like supporting her work. I’d love to do way more, like way, way, way more, but yeah, everything gets eaten up. Not to harp on too much about that, but it’s pretty crazy.

But yeah, that’s the main thing. I’m also hoping we can work more with One Hundred for Haiti. It’s my friend’s organization, and basically what it does is it helps support communities in Haiti. I don’t know if you remember there was that crazy earthquake there, but the country’s not recovered. There’s still… we have an obligation as fellow humans to support and do something helpful.

And so they’re very committed to basically growing grassroots local community organizations from locals. They do provide building materials to help with secure housing, but they also provide education for bringing down sexual assault levels of women. So that’s an organization I want to work with some more.

And then, you know, there’s a ton of great organizations just in our own backyard. Raven Trust is one I’d like to do more with. O.W.L. has worked with us for sure in the past; I love them. There’s really no shortage, which is sad, but it also is like… hey, there’s a lot of opportunity. We can all pitch in and really help.

I mean, I don’t know how to put it, like… our brothers and sisters, I don’t know how else to put it. A lot of us could just as easily be in that position. A lot of us were born really lucky that we’re not, and you just never know. And it’s not even that; it’s just… again, sentience, right? Helping those who feel.

JM: Yeah, well back to your impact-driven leadership roots for the human and non-human organizations. And was it… was it Wilma?

ES: Wilma, yes!

JM: When it comes to business and entrepreneurship, no right or wrong answer… maybe you’re just going to pick one of these avenues to consume information, or maybe you have a tip for all of them.

Do you have any books, podcasts, or apps that you use to focus on growth as an entrepreneur, or mental health as an entrepreneur? Book, podcast, or app?

ES: Yeah, I don’t… that’s the truth of it, I really don’t. I find like, I’ve tried, and maybe I just haven’t quite found the right fit. But I don’t know, I’m pretty… I don’t think critical, but I question a lot, and I want things to be done with really deliberate integrity and focusing again on those most vulnerable populations.

And I know we’re not a business that focuses on the bottom line; that is a hundred percent for sure. We could get away with a lot more, and I don’t know if I’ve really found anything that resonates too much with me with respect to our side of business that I really apply.

But yeah, keeping that in mind, it’s kind of nice because I can use others who aren’t necessarily business specific, whose wisdom I can draw upon. And I will say, actually. I just joined joined Reddit. I’m a little late to the party, but it’s a thing. And the small business forum has been really interesting to learn from. And then also just local entrepreneurs, my fellow local entrepreneurs… it’s really nice to have that community. Just something simple like, “Hey, do you want to go on a shipment together? Or hey, where did you find this?” So that’s kind of a lot of the inspiration I need. Otherwise, I feel like… maybe I should focus on it more.

JM: All right, yeah, no right or wrong answer. And you’re probably extremely slammed with creating, as a chocolatier and an artist too, so that totally makes sense.

And I hope people can hear you more on other podcasts and stuff, because it is probably better for us to create more than we consume. So if you have these messages that are deep within you and what you’re talking about, you can spread that message yourself rather than someone else talk about it… all the more power to you. So no, that totally makes sense.

Okay, keeping in line with the local suppliers or local entrepreneurs you’re talking about, and then maybe also thinking about global companies:

Are there any companies or businesses or entrepreneurs that inspire you and that you look to support?

ES: Yeah, I’m just trying to think of who immediately comes to mind. I’m pretty focused in this sphere of food manufacturing, for sure. But you know what, in that somewhat similar vein, there’s a local company called Victory Gardens, and I just love their work. They’re the sweetest people, they are really dedicated to food security and just do such a beautiful job supporting ecosystems. So I really like them.

In terms of food manufacturers, there’s a lot of people doing a lot of good work out there… and a lot of creativity. Vegan is definitely my baseline for, like a fundamental… this is really important. And then you can go on from there as you want to.

I like a lot of the zero-waste businesses, and I’m curious to see how that develops and grows. I think there’s a ton of room for innovation there on a global scale, but it does require a big shift in humanity’s mindset of how things have been for the last couple of centuries with respect to trade.

Yeah, so those sorts of businesses. Honestly, anybody who respects the people they have working with them, who is committed to putting out great vegan products, who is environmentally aware and trying their best… hats off to them.

And also keeping in mind the community itself. Not just focusing on one’s own thing and trying to get ahead at the expense of others, I think is really important.

Yeah, so that. I mean, I know there’s a bunch that should come to mind, but it’s one of those things where I’ll think about it at like three in the morning.

JM: Wow, it’s also one of those things too, right? We hate making people feel like they’re the parent trying to pick between their favourite child or something like that. So thank you for mentioning Victory Gardens. I for one, did not know, and there’s nothing better than having a conversation and learning something new about a company that’s doing great things. So thank you so much for sharing that.

ES: Yeah, oh, and quickly… I think, I wish I were more still involved in the agricultural scene. I was when I was living in Germany. But I’m a really big fan of produce farming, and I think any sort of veganic farming… I know it’s still not super mainstream, but I love that.

There was a little farm I volunteered at for a while in Germany, and they did all veganic farming. I really like that environmental stewardship as well as focusing on really putting out quality, which they did. Yeah, but there’s so much for me to learn in that realm. So really, my hat’s off to a lot of organic farmers is where I’ll leave it.

JM: Absolutely. I’m sure we could talk for like a whole other hour, which we don’t have, about your experiences in Germany, but we’ll save that for another date.

So we’re already here at our last question, which is titled “Advice.” And we always try and preface it by saying again, there’s no right or wrong answers, no time to be humble, but if you want to be humble, that’s totally fine. I know you’ve come a long way and have more room to grow… you can take it as you want. We’re looking for advice for someone who’s thinking about becoming an entrepreneur, or maybe somebody who is just starting, or maybe in the middle, or maybe building a business to be bought in a merger or something like that.

Do you have any advice for entrepreneurs anywhere on that timeline?

ES: Yeah…and I’m just hearing a delivery person come in so I might have to jet… but I’ll only be able to speak from my experience in this realm. It’s gonna be a lot harder than you think, especially if you are quite meticulous, and you can’t be perfect all the time, that’s for sure.

I would say, have people around you who understand that, because it’s pretty brutal to not… and it’s a lonely road, right? It is a lonely road. I’m the only owner of Zimt and it’s just like… man, it’s been a revolving door around here, and that’s been tough.

I would say, have a support system in place, people who, you know, may not fully understand but who understand that they don’t quite get it and still love you. And also, never forget how lucky you are to be in a position to have your own business. I know it comes out of necessity for some people, but in this narrow realm, I feel incredibly lucky.

And also, just don’t do anything to hurt animals. They don’t deserve it. So that’s the main thing I would say.

JM: You heard it folks: get a support system around you, especially filled with people who know that they don’t know everything. I think that’s really vital. You don’t want a bunch of yes members because you think that they know it all.

So there’s that, and then of course just always being grateful. And then, your first piece of advice is believing you right now. And it’s gonna be harder than you thought. All right, before we let you go and get back to doing what you do so well and letting people know where they can find you and maybe drool a little bit, is there anything that maybe we forgot to mention or anything that you wanted to say?

ES: I mean, we covered a lot of ground. Those were great questions, so thank you. I think we’re good. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to come hang out and learn about what we’re doing around here, and just thank you. That’s the main thing.

JM: Well, we’re grateful for having you. And we’d be remiss to say that with Valentine’s Day and vegan chocolate and all that good stuff coming up, is there anything that you’re doing special that you want to talk about?

ES: Yeah, that’s a good question. We do have a Valentine’s box. I’m gonna pack some of those up this afternoon. We do have a pop-up on Saturday for whoever wants to come enjoy that. And it’s gonna be pretty good. I think we did a good job.

And yeah, we have that new flavor, which is in a lot of the [Indigo-]Chapters stores: the Sweet Orange Cardamom Milk. I like that guy. And yeah, I think that’s all the Valentine’s stuff. I feel like really last minute this year with it, but that’s how it is.

JM: Ah… that’s what the follow-up was, perfection is an illusion. So if you are a perfectionist, make sure you have people around you who can constantly remind you that perfection is an illusion.

Folks, if you want to find out more… check out what’s going on online: www.zimtchocolates.com and on Instagram you can check out more there as well: @zimtchocolates. Like I said, you can drool away and shop away as well. And that’s been a real pleasure. Thank you for coming to VEG Networking Canada.

ES: Thanks so much guys, I really appreciate it. See you soon.