Brittney Ashley: Hi, I’m Brittney Ashley. Your host of Breaking Norms, Building Dreams, your guide through this transformative journey in both business and life. This is your place crafted for dreamers, doers, or anyone who has been told they can’t get ready as we challenge those narratives together. You’re tuning in live to the United Public Radio Network airing on 105.3 and 107.7 FM in New Orleans. We are streaming on all the popular platforms every Monday at 3pm Eastern, Standard Time. Join me for a candid and thought provoking conversation, celebrating your unique journey because you are worth it.
Hello everyone. Happy Monday. It’s been a while since I’ve been live, probably since August. It’s been a little crazy on my end, but I’m super excited to have Sandra here with me today.
Sandra Nomoto: Hi.
BA: So everyone again, happy Monday. Welcome to Breaking Norms, Building Dreams. I’m your host, Brittany Ashley, and we are broadcasting live on United Public Radio Network and UFO Paranormal Radio Network on 105.3 and 107.7 and New Orleans. Get ready as we escape the next hour with Sandra today. Sandra, I’m so excited to have you. I know we had to reschedule last week because kids and chaos. Normal for a mom over here. So thank you for rescheduling.
SN: Yeah, of course, yeah, we’ve talked about this, I think, for at least a few months. So, yeah. Really stoked to be here with you.
BA: Yeah, I know it’s been kind of ups and downs on my end, some of the new listeners or reoccurring listeners, just so you know that I do have two little ones, so sometimes life can get the best of me and all the things. And one kiddo has been sick a lot this year, so it’s just kind of juggling everything in between, it seems like, and then the business, yeah, but yeah, I’ll just do short little bio about who you are, Sandra, and then you can tell us more, and then let me know. I just grabbed everything that you sent me. So if there’s anything of correction, please let me know.
So Sandra is a book whisperer for impact-driven authors and proud vegan hype woman. She previously ran Conscious Public Relations Inc, one of Canada’s first B Corp certified PR agencies, and is authors of two books, including the world’s first vegan marketing book. Sandra has spoken at TELUS, Planted Expo and the Vancouver Vegan Festival, and co-hosts VEG Networking Canada, the country’s only vegan networking group. I’m so excited to have you. I don’t think I’ve ever had anyone to speak a little bit more about this. So I’m excited to dig in today.
SN: Cool, yeah. When it’s not a vegan show, I’m usually, like, the first vegan somebody’s talked to, or, or, yeah. Vegan and marketing and that intersection and so, yeah, happy to chat.
BA: Yeah. Well, maybe you can kind of tell everybody who’s listening a little bit of your background and how you started.
SN: Yeah. So I guess public relations was kind of the industry that I landed in right after I graduated from college 20 years ago. So I worked for a local, Vancouver based PR firm for about a year and a half, and then just my intuition was like, don’t apply for any other PR firms, because you’re never going to have control over the clients that you work with. And so my sister, at the time, was an entrepreneur, became a partner of a small business. So I was like, she can do it. I can do it too. And I started my own little PR company, and then closed that a decade later.
So that was 2018, and that was the same year that I went vegan, which was a big personal goal of mine. So those two things intersected that year, interestingly, and then, yeah, I was kind of just freelancing and wondering what the next career path was going to be for me for about a year and a half. And then I sat down to meditate at the end of 2019 and just got that booming, intuitive hit that was like, “You’re vegan and you will always be a writer. So put those things together.” And I know every time I ignore my intuition, it just comes back to me, in another form, stronger. So I’m like, All right, I hear the call, let’s try this. So I threw up a service page on my personal website, which is still the website I use today, and then just started tapping into my network and asking folks, “Who do you know who runs a vegan company who needs a copywriter?” Yeah, that’s how it kicked off five years ago.
And because of the pandemic, I had more time, and so I started taking courses in how to edit and format books, and then that got me working with authors. So for the last five years, I’ve kind of been working for both vegan companies and authors, and as of our conversation today, I actually want to go into 2026 really hard working with authors. Not that I don’t love the vegan world, but I just feel like it’s a little too…what’s the word I’m looking for? Just unstable right now. So, yeah, so that’s kind of where we’re at right now.
BA: Yeah, amazing. Thank you for sharing. What made—was it health issues why you went vegan or more conscious? Like, what’s a little bit more behind that?
SN: Yeah, I was also always a values-driven person, I think. But when I was younger, I just really didn’t know, except for the obvious, like, I tried to recycle kind of thing. Like, I didn’t really know how to put that into practice, until I saw the documentary Earthlings in 2000…or just before 2008, and that impacted me really powerfully. Like it was the first time that I saw how animals honestly get from, you know, farm to our plate. And I was like, that’s it. Stopped eating meat. Well, it took me about a year to remove meat for my diet, but it took me 11 years to fully go vegan, because I just did it in stages.
And health was actually the very last reason, and the reason why I kicked dairy. Dairy was kind of the last animal product I was eating for that last year before 2018 and it was health reasons that really did it. Like, I found I took a food sensitivity test, which I’d never done, and my health team could not figure out why I was getting these horrible symptoms. But yeah, I found out that I was sensitive to dairy, among other things. And then once I did that cleanse for four months, I was like, well, I guess I’m vegan now, because this is where I’ve always wanted to be and once you do diet, everything else is so much easier. Clothing, you know, makeup, like it’s so easy to find these other things vegan. So, yeah. 2018 is kind of that date that I count from.
BA: Yeah. Do you have recommendations for anyone listening to if they would like to kind of go the vegan route? Because I feel like even to know to remove dairy, like everything seems to have dairy in it.
SN: Yeah, you become a label reader once you get to this stage, which is not a bad thing, because you find other things that you know your products might contain. But yeah, I think there’s several ways you could go about it, you know, you can do what I did and just kind of do like an elimination. Once you’ve removed that one product, you know, move on to the next one and do it that way.
Veganuary is a great challenge. So you can actually sign up at any point in the year to Veganuary.com. and it will send you a guide that will help you meal plan and basically start off January like, okay with this 30 day challenge, or 31 days, let’s try and go vegan for the entire month. It will require effort with meal planning, but if you can do like, an entire month, you’re pretty good to go, in my opinion, right?
So I think there’s definitely different ways you can go about it, but I think the most important thing is that commitment, right? And why you’re doing it. Are you doing it for health? Are you doing it for the animals? Are you doing it for the planet? Because animal agriculture is one of the most carbon-intensive and polluting industries that we have, so really think about why you’re doing it and have that North Star.
Don’t be too hard on yourself and like, oh, yeah, I want to do it in a month. You can. But I think it’s more important that, yeah, you make sure that you commit to it long-term. Because, yeah, like I said, it took me 11 years. I don’t think it needs to take anybody that long with all of the alternatives that we have now and the resources, but in a year, I think you could do it. Anybody could do it.
BA: Yeah, amazing. Do you know if they have an app?
SN: Veganuary I don’t think has an app. So it’s, yeah, it’s the kind of thing you sign up online. It’ll send you the guide and maybe some other emails to help you get started. In terms of apps, abillion is a pretty popular one where a lot of people just share like their favorite vegan products and that sort of stuff. And you can do the same thing. And the other really popular one is HappyCow, which is kind of geographic-based, and that will show you what vegan-friendly restaurants there are in your area. So you can, if you’re traveling, you can use it to basically see, like, Where can I eat vegan around me? And it’s not vegan only. You know, it could be a restaurant that also serves animal products, but it’ll actually, it’ll at least tell you where you can get options. Yeah.
BA: Okay, nice. I know one thing that’s really tricky for individuals that are going to be vegan and or dairy-free is to find restaurants that can be inclusive, like that. So it’s neat to have an app that you can just quickly go to. Anyone listening should also create another app, because cooking recipe ideas, or anything like that. Or maybe there is. I have not ventured in that world yet.
SN: Yeah. I mean, I’d be surprised if there weren’t. I can’t name any off the bat because there are just so many vegan influencers and content creators that are in that space. Actually, one that comes to mind that’s in your area. Carleigh Bodrug is based in Ontario, and she wrote two cookbooks. I think that her most recent one became a New York Times bestseller. It’s called Plant You. And what’s great about her, her content and her cookbooks is it focuses on, like, budget-friendly cooking, so you can actually use like, she’ll show you how to use scraps. So like, for example, garlic and onion scraps to create garlic and onion powder. Like, like crazy stuff like that, which is, which is awesome. So if you’re also, like, looking to save money, Carleigh Bodrug is a really awesome resource.
BA: Amazing. And I find that’s like, the one, like, even just going into stores, like, we work with a bakery, and to know that there are those extra options is nice, because you know that you can go to those places for vegan and or gluten-free. There’s another bakery here. I can’t remember the name of it. I think it’s Origin. Origin gluten-free bakery. And if you go to it, it’s just like they really are mindful of the products that they produce for individuals. And I think it was like one of the—because it—gluten-free here, because I’m on the West Coast. So it’s kind of like, I wouldn’t say, I don’t want to say a trend, but like a thing to do too, like a lot of people are on that bag wagon because they choose to and or they have to for health reasons. So it’s nice to kind of see those items a little bit more for individuals who want to navigate through that.
Both your marketing and your PR experience, I guess is that kind of what helped trick your idea more into the book writing? Like, how did it kind of funnel? I know you mentioned a little bit of that flow, but when you did the book writing, did you take a little bit more courses on that?
SN: So when I came up with the idea for Vegan Marketing Success Stories, my second book in 2021, nobody had done a book on that topic. And not only did, they didn’t like there was no vegan marketing book in the world. There was only one book about vegan business that existed that was published 10 years ago. So I was like, whoa. Like, what an underserved market.
And since my book, there have still only been about three other business books about the vegan world. So still a very underserved market. And I just yeah, that just told me, okay, I gotta do this. And so compared to my first book, which I published in 2019 pretty much all by myself, I knew that I wanted to do this one properly.
So I actually hired a book coach who is also a vegan, so Mitali, who runs a company called The Vegan Publisher. She actually has a self-guided course that you can buy online. So I took that, and that comes with some coaching as well. And I just wanted to make sure that, because I was self-publishing again, I wanted to make sure I was doing everything properly. So that was, like the one resource that I used.
Other than that, because I had that experience from the first book, I pretty much hired the team that I wanted, and I did have help with the book from contributors. So I reached out to close to 300 vegan companies and service providers to contribute their marketing stories. And then I heard back from just under 50. And then I also wanted to use all these examples that I saw online, so, there’s roughly, like, close to 100 companies that I mention in the book, and that also really helped to fill in that content. So that’s yeah, really how the book unfolded. And of course, I was hoping that I, you know, would get clients out of it. So that was…yeah.
BA: Amazing. Can you give us a little bit more about—what’s the difference between the two books? Because you have the main one that you started, and then I have the name of the other. So let me see if I can even share it on the screen here too.
SN: Yeah. So my first book is called The Only Public Relations Guide You’ll Ever Need. World’s longest title. And it’s a workbook that I created when I was still running Conscious PR. Yeah, just to basically tell people how they can come up with their own public relations strategy. So I had written the book before I closed the agency, and then after I closed it, I was kind of like, I have this manuscript. Do I still want to put this book out there? Because I’m not really looking for clients anymore. But I decided to do it anyway, just to get that experience of self-publishing on Amazon, which, I’m really thankful I did, because, again, it gave me that experience of self-publishing that really helped me with my second book.
BA: Yes. I’m waiting for it to think about sharing, or else…if you’re wondering what I’m doing. I was trying to share my screen, but it’s not letting me. Tech issues. Okay, we tried. Well, I’ll just put the link to where they can find the book within the banner here.
But no, that’s amazing, and maybe we should just back up just a little bit to educate any further listeners who don’t even understand what public relations is, because I am a marketer, so I know what it is, and I always fail to educate. So I’m trying to make sure anyone listening for the first time, we educate on what is PR, and how maybe a small business or businesses can you utilize it, I think is beneficial too.
SN: Yeah, so the mainstream perception of what PR is, oh, you write a news release and you send it out to the media. Yeah, that is one aspect of public relations, and you could call that media relations, media outreach, publicity. That is one way that you can get attention for yourself or your company. You write a news release, you send it out to the media who you think will cover your story, or you, or your business, and then you see a story come out, great. And now you have more eyeballs or listeners on you or your company. But I would say, like the actual practice of public relations, or what the term means, is the perception that the public has of you or your company, so that can be positive PR, that can be negative PR, so think of things like government, politics. That can very easily, even within like a couple days, can swing back and forth between positive and negative. But for most folks, you want to earn that positive PR and not gain negative PR. You know, so long as you’re not doing anything criminal, you probably are going to be okay.
But yeah, well, how do you gain positive PR? Well, you can post on social and gain followers and engage with them. You can engage with the media, try and land podcast interviews. Pretty much any other medium that contributes to you getting exposure in some way and building that positive PR that is part of your PR strategy. So that’s the difference between, like, what people think it is and what it actually is.
BA: Yeah. And I’ve always heard the notion of: bad PR is good PR? What is your take on that?
SN: Yeah. I mean, if you actually do screw up on something, and you earn that bad, you earn poor media coverage, and you turn it around, then it can result in positive PR for you and your brand. However, I don’t encourage people to do that intentionally. So like, this is not, we’re not in—we’re not talking Hollywood, people. Like, oh you know, oh, let’s get J Lo and some, what other ex-boyfriend, she might have been dating just so that she has attention for this upcoming movie, and then she’s actually going to marry a different guy. Like, that’s not what we want, because that’s all just short-term attention. Like in the long run, you want to be that brand that people trust, right? And so always aim for positive PR, in my opinion, yeah.
BA: And a good chunk of businesses have Google reviews. I always just tell anybody that, even if you get a bad review, make sure you respond too, so you can give more of the light of maybe what happened behind the scenes a bit more than just ignoring it. Because unfortunately, you can’t please everybody, and things can go sideways, it’s just how you react to it as well.
I actually used to know this writer who actually got a bad review on their book because they had somebody, I guess—they hired someone to edit this. You might have some take on this. So they edited the book, and I guess they missed some grammar pieces and some punctuations, and somebody left a bad review on Amazon for them, saying that their book isn’t properly written. They have grammar issues and all these things. And I remember being like, “I think you should still respond to them, because you ended up using like a junior editor who is still learning,” and you think it’s kind of twisted in a way, like, “Thank you for your feedback. Just so, you know, I used a junior editor.” Because they, you know? I just felt like they should have still acknowledged the negative feedback, but they were so angry. They’re like, I don’t have time for this.
SN: Yeah, I actually don’t know if you can respond to Amazon reviews, because I’ve, yeah. Both my books are on Amazon. And I, yeah, I don’t think you can unless that person’s name is public and you’re able to find their contact info, but that, yeah, that’s kind of a risk that you take it as an author, right? Making sure that you hire a professional editor who will catch that kind of stuff so that you don’t get a bad review. And yes, I know that there are, you know, bots and stuff like that can sabotage you, but I don’t see that kind of stuff happening too much on Amazon, because Amazon is pretty good at flagging stuff that looks off.
So I don’t think you would see too much of that on Amazon, but yeah, for sure, I see that on Google and Facebook. And in those cases, yeah, I think you can respond and be like, “Hey Don’t even know this person. Didn’t do business with them. So this is obviously a bad review.” And you could try and take it down. Again, I don’t know if you’ll be successful at it, but you can at least try.
BA: Yeah, I know that they went on Amazon and Facebook at least, so they tried to push it on all the masses. And I was like, well, even if you can leave one kind of takeaway, just kind of note it. But yeah, maybe we can kind of go through how, if someone’s listening to us today on how to go about writing a book. Because I know you offer some services there too.
SN: Yeah. So I’m not really a writing coach. I’m more of a book coach. So if you want help with the publishing process, that’s more my expertise, rather than helping you become a good writer. But there’s so many resources out there. So locally, you can try and find a writing group. You can hire a writing coach, or if you want to outsource the writing, like it’s still your story and expertise, but you can work with a ghostwriter. So I’ve done that for three authors now. Or you can hire somebody to co-author a book with you. So there’s a lot of different options.
And when I say writing, that’s also not necessarily just, let’s sit at a laptop and like, fill up those pages, you can actually speak your book. So if you’re a better speaker than you are a writer, yeah, record yourself, and then there’s so many AI apps that can help you turn that audio into text. It’s not going to be perfect, so you will have to go through it, but as an author, you should be going through your own drafts, anyway. Yeah, and that’s actually how I work as a ghostwriter, for folks, is we hop on Zoom, and I hit record, and then I just pretty much let people talk. And I may have some questions here and there, but for the most part, I like to, yeah, just get their spoken word on the page.
BA: Okay, I was wondering how that worked for ghostwriters. So interesting. Do you…so when you’re recording individuals, do you have them to also pre-write anything as well? Or is it more or less just video, record and take it?
SN: Yeah. We don’t wing anything. So before I start working with the author, we come up with an outline for the book so that we can kind of have an idea of the journey that we want our reader to take. And then, based on how long we can get done in that one one-hour session, for example, then we have an idea of, like, how many more sessions we’ll need after that to get the rest of it done. So, yeah. So I always recommend, whether you’re working with a ghostwriter or not, like, always start with an outline, and that’ll really help guide your content that you need to fill in to complete your book.
BA: Amazing. Do you have, for anyone thinking about writing a book, maybe, like the starting phases, because we can all have ideas, but then it’s like, do we know if that’s even feasible or not? Because I know you and I’ve chatted, and I had multiple ideas on my ADHD brain all over the place, and I’m like, I’ll get back to that later.
SN: Yeah. I mean, I think if that’s something you want to do, publish a book, you definitely can. Because, as I said, you know, self-publishing has made the process so much easier and more accessible for any author to get published. You no longer need a literary agent, or, you know, to land a publisher to get a book out there.
So everyone has a story. I really believe that. It’s just a matter of knowing your audience. You know who’s your ideal reader, just like any other product or service that you’re marketing, you want to have idea of who it’s for. And if you say, “Oh, it’s for everybody.” No, my friend. Because, like a youth, you know, a child who’s 10 years old and a man who’s, you know, over 60, that’s a completely different audience, right? So you have to know who your reader is. Have an idea of the story that you want to tell. The genre. So is it going to be fiction, nonfiction, and even within nonfiction, which is where I work with most people, there’s memoir, there’s autobiography, there’s a business book, there’s self-help. So really have an idea of, like, what genre your book is, who your audience is, and if it’s like, even a niche within, for example, business or self-help, because those are huge categories as is.
So for example, my vegan marketing book, the only vegan marketing book in the world, because, because I was able to basically take these two niches and combine them. That can help you further, because no other book exists like it. So that’ll also help with your marketing later.
BA: Yeah, and it’s hard too. I would say reaching out to you, for example, like, because you and I have been back and forth on what kind of book ideas I had, and then it’s like, going back to the drawing board. So it’s always nice to kind of have a brain dump, and then sometimes going backwards too.
SN: Yeah. I’m going through this process right now where I thought I was writing a memoir about my family, but then as I’m doing research and reading other people’s books, I was like, I’m thinking, oh, I want to bring in this element, in that element. And now I think in the end, it’s going to end up being more, be more of a nonfiction or a teaching memoir. So even I’m going through this process right now, like, you can have one idea, and then soon as you start going down the road, you’re like, “Oh no, I want it to be something else.” So yeah, that and that can happen. That’s all part of the creative process.
BA: Do you do then, you said nonfiction? But does it matter how thick of a book that you support with and or if anyone’s thinking of like children’s books, for example, are like, 16 pages, and then the little bit more of the meat ones. Do you recommend for someone who’s just starting out and they just feel like, oh my goodness, a book writing is going to take so much time and effort to even get on the table?
SN: Yeah. So for your standard book, like novel or nonfiction book, you need at least 30,000 words, which is going to be roughly 80 pages. Again, it depends on, like, the font you’re using, how big it is and all of that. But yeah, anything less than that, like your book is just going to be too thin and look like it’s kind of like a brochure or like, yeah, people aren’t going to be quite sure what it is. So that 30,000 word makes sure that you just have enough pages to make it look like a proper book.
I don’t recommend people go over 75,000 or 100,000 words, because then you’re on the thicker side. And usually we only see those really thick books from the books that you see at drugstores, like a Jackie Collins romance or Stephen King. And if you’re not yet at that level, then don’t write, you know, that many pages.
And in terms of how to tackle that much, so let’s say 30,000 words. See if you can write 1000 words a day. So that’s just about two and a half pages of a Google Doc. It’s not that much. So yeah, when I say 30,000 everyone’s like, whoa, but when you actually put it on a page and I asked you, like, can you write two and a half pages every day for 30 days? And it’s actually pretty accessible. You might be able to get at least the bare foundation of your book done in about a month.
BA: Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but my first thought is like, oh, that sounds like a lot. But no, it makes sense to kind of break it down in manageable pieces, just kind of like when you’re wanting to go back into the gym for the first time, you shouldn’t just push yourself for a full week and then it’s just going to go backwards. So making sure that you’re doing those little steps to get there would be smart.
SN: Yeah. I mean, if you, let’s say—there’s writing retreats for this right, where you can go off on vacation, and then, you know, you have, like, this dedicated writing time to go and write. Absolutely, you can maybe get it done on your vacation. But, yeah, like, if you’re busy, like most of us, I think writing a little bit a day is a good approach.
BA: Yeah, we’re already halfway in. So anyone who’s just listening for the first time and or coming and listening, welcome to Breaking Norms, Building Dreams. We’re live on the United Public Radio Network and UFO Paranormal Radio Network on 105.3 and 107.7 in New Orleans.
I was going to ask, Sandra, because I know we talked about the process a bit there, but we have Amazon. So you can self-publish yourself. Maybe you can dig a little bit in the pieces there. So anyone listening. Cause I find right now—you can say otherwise—bu a lot of people are just taking that process to self-publish through Amazon. I feel like every other post I’m seeing, so many more people are doing it that way than going to an actual publisher.
SN: Yeah. So if we break down the process, so there’s a couple stages. So there’s the writing of the book then it goes through editing, then you’re designing the interior and the cover of the book, and then you distribute it somehow, and then you market the book. Those are essentially like the five steps of publishing a book.
So back in the day when we didn’t have self-publishing, you’d need a publisher to basically sign you and say, “I’m going to do all these services for you.” And you may or may not get an advance as a writer, but essentially, “We’re investing in you as the author and the idea for your book.” And so it could take, if you land a publishing deal, up to two years for your book to actually come out, because there’s the writing of the book, and then you’re going to be working with editors, and then they have to design the book, and then they have to come up with the marketing strategy. So all that takes time, right?
When you’re self-publishing, you don’t have that timeline, or somebody telling you here’s how it’s going to go. You really can take control of this entire process. And I tell people like you can you can have your book done within a year. If you’re pretty committed to getting your—completing your manuscript, and then from there, it’s hiring an editor, cover designer, formatter, maybe some people to help you with marketing.
The other option is you go with an agency or a hybrid publisher. So there are companies that will do all of this for you, but you pay them.
BA: Okay.
SN: Right? So that’s another option if you don’t want to search, you know, for an editor and a formatter and all this. But it’s still technically self publishing, because you own, you still own the rights to your book, and you can. Yeah, you have the rights to change it and things like that, when you don’t have that with a traditional deal. And then when it comes to publishing. So if you’re self-publishing, yeah, you have to choose which platform that you’re going to use to print and distribute your books. Amazon is not only the most popular platform where people buy books, but it’s a very easy to use platform, and that’s why I understand why people use it.
The other more popular one is Ingram Spark. So it’ll distribute not only to Amazon, but all the other places where people buy books. So Kobo Barnes and Noble, you know, etc. and Ingram also allows bookstores to order from them at a wholesale price. So that’s the other bonus with IngramSpark is if you really do want to get into physical bookstores, that’s probably your best bet, because bookstores aren’t going to order from Amazon. And there’s other platforms that we can talk about, but I would say those are probably the top two platforms that most self-publishing authors are using.
BA: Amazing. Yeah, I remember, like, before you and I met, thinking about it, and I dabbled in, like, Amazon. I was like, ah, too much. And I just got overwhelmed and…another day project.
SN: But yeah, it doesn’t take like, five minutes to load your book. There are, you know, quite a bit of fields, like you have to have your ISBN, your book number ready to go. You know, think about your keywords. You have to have your description ready to go. So there’s, yeah, there’s all these things that you have to fill out. So might take you, you know, a good hour or so to sit and actually fill all those things out. Or, yeah, you can do it in sessions, but yeah, it’s not like a five-minute job.
BA: No, it’s not. So anyone thinking about it. Just plan a little bit more.
SN: Yeah, yeah. Carve out that time to sit and do it.
BA: Yes. But I find, like so many business owners, really are thinking of ways of integrating their books as well into, maybe it’s part of their process. So yeah, for anyone thinking about it, definitely reach out to Sandra. Because I’ve reached out to Sandra myself, and I haven’t gone anywhere with it. I’ve been super busy and chatted with you, but definitely reach out to you and just kind of brainstorm some of those extra ideas, because you also helped me, kind of like, oh, those ideas have been out there. Or how, yes, these are great ideas, but how can we add a little bit more to it to make it more unique?
SN: So yeah, and I never charge for the first call, so I’m always happy to just sit and chat with you and hear about your book idea, and I’ll tell you right off the bat if I think it’s a good idea or not. Or not, just based on what I’ve seen. Yeah. Happy chat anytime.
BA: Yeah. Do you have any advice for anyone who’s like, “Yes, I really want to move forward with this.” To really make the book to have its impact they’re hoping to have across the…
SN: Yeah. I mean, once you’ve written your manuscript, and then you’ve got your team in place, you know, your editors, formatters, cover designers, like, where the real work begins after that, I tell everybody, is with the marketing. So really expect to put in the time and the budget. That’ll depend on what your resources are, but at least the time to get your book out there. So that means reaching out to media, reaching out to podcasts that are going to be interested in your book idea. You know, putting content out there. So social media, emails, blogs, whatever you can. And then from there, it’s what other resources do you have that can then help your book go further? Because, yeah, you really want to spend at least, like, a good year marketing your book, because the worst thing that can happen is, yeah, you throw it up on Amazon. Anybody can do that. But if people don’t know to buy it, then it’s just going to sit there and yeah, and that’s unfortunate, because you’ve spent all this time writing the book and thinking about your reader and putting in the investment, and so yeah, you really want to get it to the people who need it.
BA: Yes. And that’s, I feel like that’s always the missing factor sometimes for anything that they have all these great ideas, but then marketing just kind of gets kind of, “Oh, yeah, I should probably do this.” Just like with courses, they’re like, “Oh, I have all these ideas to curate a course, but now I have this, and I don’t know what else to do.”
It’s kind of like, make sure when you’re building out the book that you’re also considering the bigger picture of the marketing aspects. Would you say there’s kind of, like, a fine line for budget for anyone listening? If they’re like a lone soldier, maybe they only had, say, 5K to promote this book? Did you have—yes, definitely go reach out to the media, high level, quick tips for anybody who might be really on a budget?
SN: Yeah, I’d say $5000 is actually a really good number. I always say, like, at least $2000 because, depending on where your own strengths are, you’re going to need to outsource, right? So for me, like, I have a PR background, so I knew that I was going to do my own publicity. I didn’t really need help with that, but what I did need help with was a content strategy, because I had 100 companies that I needed to give a shout out to who were in my book, and I just couldn’t wrap my head around like, where do I even start with? Like, making sure every company is mentioned in my social media, etc.
So I actually hired a strategist who came up with a three-month strategy for me, and she basically told me, like, here’s what to post every day for three months. And I actually continued that strategy on for an extra month. So I did four months, and I paid her $2000 which was my budget at the time. I also did like a magazine ad. I can’t remember what else I did, but I don’t think—oh, yeah, and social media ads, which I—again, it’s hard to say, right, because there’s no way to track whether people bought your book because of that.
But I would say my book probably sold because of the amount of vegan-focused podcasts that I went on, because it’s vegans who are listening to those podcasts. And so it’s those, yeah, those folks who came to buy my book.
BA: Yes, which is a good, usually…
SN: …sold them at events and that kind of thing. But yeah, I think $5,000 you can do quite a lot with that. Just be really strategic, and make sure that there are ways that you’re going to directly reach your target reader.
BA: Amazing. And just jumping on the podcast thing, I find like that one is kind of going to get lost in the cracks a little bit. But going into your niche podcasts. And there’s great Facebook groups out there. Anyone listening, to get onto podcasts. You don’t have to pay. A good chunk of people just want you to be a guest. I flag or start to question the ones that ask you to pay to be on their podcast. I don’t know about you, Sandra.
SN: Yeah. I mean, like, I’m open to it if you’ve got like, a really high listenership, and you can prove that. And then I go to their social media and they’ve got like 100 followers, it makes no sense to me. So I don’t come across very many who do charge, but if they were to and the audience looks aligned, I would want to make sure that I’m getting my investment’s worth. So really look at their media kit and their followership, but for the most part, absolutely, you don’t pay to be a guest.
You want to make sure that you’re telling the host or the producer of the podcast that your book idea or your business, whatever it may be, is a fit for the listeners of that particular podcast. That’s really all you have to do when you pitch them. And then from there, it’s following up and booking a date and such.
BA: One hundred percent. And make sure you’re showing up on the right podcast, because you can waste your time just so ask for the stats like you’re just saying, and make sure that they’re really alignment with the book that you’re trying to produce and put out there. Because I know I’ve been on some podcasts where they’re like, “Oh, I want you on this podcast, because I really want X, Y and Z.” I’m like, “Oh, sounds great.” And I start going on it. It was just on this one, actually, not too long ago, I felt like I was, in a way, being coached for, like, for people to listen. And it felt so awkward. I was like, “I don’t need to be coached. I have my coach/consultant, Lindsay. I don’t need to be live streamed for this.” And it felt really awkward.
So making sure, you do your due diligence of who they are, what it’s all about, and listen to other podcasts that they probably have already done, making sure that that’s within alignment. But yeah, it was really uncomfortable.
SN: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I’m sorry to hear that. That seems like such a horrible experience. But yeah, listening to past podcasts will tell you. It’ll give you, you know, the vibe of the host, and whether you think you’re a suitable guest. And here’s one way your listeners can save some money, because I found there’s a site called PodcastGuests.com, and for about $15 month, you can basically get emails of podcasts that are looking for guests, and then you can also pitch yourself on theirs.
And I didn’t find that brought me very many podcasts that were aligned. There were a lot of podcasts that were just starting out. I was they’re not even 10th guest kind of thing. And some of them, like, even ghosted. I was using their Calendly. And then didn’t show up to the podcast.
So, again, not to discourage people and say, don’t use that. But like that might be a really good starting place for you to just practice on podcasts. But in terms of alignment, it didn’t really help me. And I actually didn’t know about the Facebook groups yet at this time, that there were Facebook groups that were posting and looking for guests. So I didn’t do too much of that when my book launched.
BA: Yeah, just so anyone’s listening, there’s so many Facebook groups out there for different things. So for podcasts, there’s tons of groups out there that you can just join for free. But anything that you’re thinking of that you need help with, I’m just going to say, like Asana, systems or anything like that. Just go on Facebook and look for it. Because I always try to find Facebook groups before I have to go pay for anything else. Because there’s somebody out there, or YouTube. But really, at the end of the day, if you’re trying to look for a service, or trying to get into something of that scale to grow the business brand, there’s probably a Facebook group for it. Or probably at this rate, LinkedIn group. LinkedIn seems to be pretty popular with their groups lately.
SN: Yeah, I haven’t found any on LinkedIn specifically for podcast matching, but yeah, that would be a really good thing to look at. And then a couple other tips: like you could ask AI. Again, put in what’s your book idea, what are you an expert in, and see what it comes up with in terms of names of actual podcasts. Make sure they’re current.
And another great idea that my colleague shares is look at your podcast platform so you can actually go into Apple, go into Spotify, type in the keywords, and then hopefully the podcasts, yeah, that are using those keywords will pop up, and then you’ll know that you should pitch yourself to them.
And then another pro tip is, when you’re pitching the podcast, especially if it’s one that you really want to get on, tell them I listened to this episode and that episode, and tell them why you enjoyed it, and then why you would make a great guest on their podcast. People love hearing that you’ve already listened to their podcast, because it means—I did the same thing before I came on here. I listened to a couple of your episodes just so that I can get a flavor of the show. Yeah, that goes a long way.
BA: It’s true, because you can also kind of sense too, who you’re going to be working with, too. There’s that vibe there, and also too, the style. Because I know, like, I’ve made questions before for us, and I told you, I’m like, I hardly ever really look down at it. And some people get super stressed out when they are coming on the show. They’re like, “Brittney, you have like, 60 questions.” I don’t, but you know, over-exaggerating. “I’m so stressed out. We’re going live. I’m so scared to come on the show.” I’m like, I am so casual. I maybe once in a while might look down, like, oh, right, that’s something I really want to make sure that we bring to the fore field for everyone to listen to, but barely do I ever really rely on these questions. I try to make it really conversational and flow. So knowing how the podcast host interacts to individuals and you can tell when somebody’s actually…sometimes, I read off the script for the opening, closing. Because you would think I’d have that memorized by now, but I don’t. But that’s pretty much it. You can tell when I’m reading off the script there.
SN: Yeah, and then, because I am a publicist for other authors and I help them actually pitch podcasts on their behalf, I always find, like some hosts ask for questions. They’re like, “If you have a list of topics that they like to talk about, or list of questions, please send them to me.” And that’s great to have in your media kit on hand so there are no surprises, because they also need some guidance. You need some guidance. And so, yeah, so sometimes it might, might end up being like that, where they want you to come up with the questions that you want to be asked, and then you get to showcase what you want to.
BA: Yeah, and also thinking, I was just thinking, what else anyone who’s launching a new book could be speaking opportunities as well. Because podcast yes is great, and it’s simple and you’re here, but sometimes going that extra mile and actually meeting the audience even further in person, I feel helps too.
SN: Absolutely. This is what I found when I published my book. That was completely unexpected, because I have no goals to be a professional public speaker. Just as soon as your book launches, events start asking you to speak there. It’s just a thing and doesn’t mean you have to. You can say no, especially if, like, they’re inviting you and they’re not going to pay you. But some of them do start offering you money. Like, this is what happened when…I published my book in 2022 and then by 2024 I was asked to speak on, like, one of the biggest plant based stages in the country, Planted Expo. Because I knew—one of the partners of the show, and he had seen my journey, like putting out this book, appearing on all the podcasts. And he’s like, yeah, like, I think Sandra has something to say. Let’s invite her on stage, and he paid me to, you know, come up with a talk.
So if that’s a goal of yours, publishing a book is a really good idea. It is the fast track to getting you on stages and paid gigs. If that’s what you want. Like, TEDx is great, but TEDx does not pay. I will tell you you’re volunteering your time to come up with a 20-minute keynote. No, if you want to get paid to speak, and that’s something that you know, me as a PR strategist, we can talk about. What media should you be on? What events should you be pushing yourself to? Because again, the more that you can reach that target reader, the better. Yeah, your book is going to sell and your business is going to thrive, etc.
BA: Yes. And I find, I too sometimes, if you’re writing a book, you’re like, oh my goodness, I have to public speak. It’s not that we’re saying you have to. It’s just an opportunity or another mechanism within the marketing piece that can open up extra doors too. And just like TED talks, you’re just saying they don’t pay for you to go there. If you’re making a solid 20-minute presentation, look at places that you can actually open up and get paid for as well.
SN: Yeah.
BA: I do a lot of my speaking gigs for free, and my girlfriend’s like, “You need to get paid for that. Now you’ve been that. Now you’ve been everywhere.”
SN: Yeah, or here’s a tip, because, yeah, like, you know, there was an online summit that invited me, and I just asked, like, “Do you pay?” ‘Cause here I am, I’m going to create this masterclass for you. I’d like to be compensated. And they’re like, “Yeah, we’ll pay this fee.” And then after I spoke at Planted Expo, the organizer of the Nanaimo Veg Fest saw my talk that I put up online, and was like, “Can you give the same talk at our event? We can’t pay as much, but we can still pay you.” Great. That pretty much paid for my travel.
And then a month after that, I was invited to speak at Vancouver Vegan Festival, which is a nonprofit festival, so they don’t have money to pay speakers, but I asked them, “Can you set me up with a table so that I can sell my books?” And then I sold a couple books there, so you can always negotiate. For example, a conference, if they’re not going to pay you as a keynote speaker, ask for a booth, you know, because then you can sell your books, you can market your other products and services. You can always negotiate for other things.
BA: Yeah. I like that because I feel like sometimes we forget or like I was just having this conversation. We just did a workshop trauma with money, women and wealth. And sometimes we, as women, we feel we have to undervalue ourselves a little bit lower, and then asking that question of, what else can I get from it? But then we feel still guilty about it, and we shouldn’t, because we’re still giving. We’re devaluing our worth in essence of it.
SN: Yeah, absolutely. Like, even though you’re giving, like a 20-minute talk, you have to remember, like, it could take hours to prepare that. I practiced my talk 13 times, and that actually wasn’t enough. Like, I should have practiced more, because I kept looking back at my slides and getting lost. So it just takes time to develop that. And so think about the time that you’re putting in. You should be compensated for that.
And I always say, I listen to Gary Vaynerchuk’s podcast, and every now and then he always talks about how the very first time he was asked to speak, they were like, “What do you charge?” And he had no idea, like, what to say. So he was like, “$5,000.” And they’re like, “Sure.” And then now he charges, like, 10 times that. But when he started out, he was like, I don’t know what the going rate is. Like, throw a number out there and they had, like, they did not even bat an eye at $5000. So just so you know, ladies and everyone else who just isn’t, you know, get hit to the speaking game. Like you can, you can make quite a lot as a public speaker, if that’s a goal of yours.
BA: Yes, 100%. Well, we’re almost at time. Is there any kind of last-minute advice you want to provide everyone who’s listening, either from the book point, or anything else?
SN: Yeah, maybe two things, like, if you’re interested in veganism, and, yeah, removing harm to animals from your lifestyle, I have all the resources that have helped me along the way, like lists of documentaries, books, influencers that I follow on the page, List Love on my website. So it’s just with my name, SandraNomoto.com.
And then, yeah, if you’re interested in publishing a book, I’d love to chat with you, especially if you’re going the self-publishing route. And, yeah, just hop on my contact page. I’ve got a form there that will, yeah, ask questions about your book, especially if you’ve already written it. And then what you may need from me. So I do ghostwriting, editing, interior and ebook formatting, and I can help you on the marketing side. The one thing that I don’t do is cover design. So somebody else is going to design your cover, but I can help you with almost everything else.
BA: Direct us in the right way, too. Yes, amazing. Well, thank you so much, Sandra, for coming on today. I’m excited to finally have you on, and we’ll have you back, and you can let us know about more books down the road, because I bet you’re still writing.
SN: Yeah, will always be writing over here.
BA: With that everyone, I want to give a big thank you to all our listeners at United Public Radio Network and UFO Paranormal Radio Network. We’re going to be live next week with Steph, which we have some surprise talks. So I’m not going to say too much today, so you have to listen live next week at 12 Pacific Standard Time. With that, everyone, remember your journey is unique and your worth is unquestionable. Thank you, everyone.
SN: Thank you. Bye.
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